User talk:BlackWidowMovie0: Difference between revisions
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:::::::::{{ping|Naleksuh}} I am not trying to deceive Fast, I swear. And with the message Fast posted, I'd like to start here free from rules that no one else has. No <code>One strike</code>, nothing. [[User:BlackWidowMovie0|BlackWidowMovie0]] ([[User talk:BlackWidowMovie0|talk]]) 10:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC) | :::::::::{{ping|Naleksuh}} I am not trying to deceive Fast, I swear. And with the message Fast posted, I'd like to start here free from rules that no one else has. No <code>One strike</code>, nothing. [[User:BlackWidowMovie0|BlackWidowMovie0]] ([[User talk:BlackWidowMovie0|talk]]) 10:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
::::::::::It's fine, I don't hate you, I don't even really feel any irritation. Granted I'm pretty hard to perturb these days, even outright spammers and trolls don't bother me, their motivations are easily understandable, and dealing with them is straightforward. I have sometimes been a tad irritated when dealing with people who have both big upsides and big downsides, like someone who is a strong subject matter expert and insightful commenter but also an occasional dramamonger and thread derailer. In cases like that maximizing value for everyone involves considerable extra work separating and merging discussions, moving things from public to private etc, but even then at most it'll get a brief sigh out of me.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>No I'm mildly puzzled. When I first read your comment about a failed fresh start that got screwed I assumed you were referring to this account as a fresh start away from fandom, miraheze, wikimedia, et al. It didn't even occur to me that you would make a sockpuppet here, because creating another account here doesn't make much sense. This wiki is for testing, so if you're not testing yourself then you are facilitating testing for others so they can learn how to build things, and I'm not really sure how you would be significantly hampered in either by others checking in on your contributions, or by the lack of a crat flag; the number of additional tools isn't that large and the functionality is similar. But I can be dense from time-to-time as evidenced by the foregoing so maybe there's something I'm missing.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>Unfortunately, and don't take this the wrong way, I will have to rescind my earlier offer to chat Saturday. Informing people in a private forum that you are going to violate community rules or even hinting at it is incredibly unfair to the people you invited there as it puts them in a bind. There is an implicit understanding when someone comes to you in confidence for privacy, that it should be respected, you don't betray people's trust. However if you are in a position to prevent a violation of the community standards that you are responsible for upholding you have a duty to do so as well, you don't betray the community's trust. The best resolution to that conundrum varies on a case by case bases, sometimes it's really easy, but sometimes it's incredibly complex, and you really should avoid putting people in that situation outside of extraordinary circumstances. In fact as I mentioned earlier conversations about wiki related things should almost always stay on wiki, unless privacy is paramount.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>So earlier I said your trajectory looked positive, I'm not so sure of that now. However, you're not blocked, so if you still want to experiment with things you don't need tools for you're good-to-go. As for one-strike, you were given considerably more than one-strike, and again not trying to rub in any salt here, but even if this were the first wiki you'd edited on ever, you would have been in rather hot water. And again I'm just trying to keep it real here.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>So I feel like everyone is owed a path forward, however narrow, so my question is this: What do you want to accomplish here? Is it something that requires certain flags on your account? So far all you've said is you don't want any restrictions, but if that really is all you want then you have a zillion independent wikis to choose from, some don't even have accounts, no restrictions for anyone. So again, why here? If you help everyone else understand your desired end state then maybe we can come up with something to get you there. Best, [[User:Fast|Fast - ZoomZoom]] ([[User talk:Fast|talk]]) 04:20, 11 December 2020 (UTC) | ::::::::::It's fine, I don't hate you, I don't even really feel any irritation. Granted I'm pretty hard to perturb these days, even outright spammers and trolls don't bother me, their motivations are easily understandable, and dealing with them is straightforward. I have sometimes been a tad irritated when dealing with people who have both big upsides and big downsides, like someone who is a strong subject matter expert and insightful commenter but also an occasional dramamonger and thread derailer. In cases like that maximizing value for everyone involves considerable extra work separating and merging discussions, moving things from public to private etc, but even then at most it'll get a brief sigh out of me.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>No I'm mildly puzzled. When I first read your comment about a failed fresh start that got screwed I assumed you were referring to this account as a fresh start away from fandom, miraheze, wikimedia, et al. It didn't even occur to me that you would make a sockpuppet here, because creating another account here doesn't make much sense. This wiki is for testing, so if you're not testing yourself then you are facilitating testing for others so they can learn how to build things, and I'm not really sure how you would be significantly hampered in either by others checking in on your contributions, or by the lack of a crat flag; the number of additional tools isn't that large and the functionality is similar. But I can be dense from time-to-time as evidenced by the foregoing so maybe there's something I'm missing.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>Unfortunately, and don't take this the wrong way, I will have to rescind my earlier offer to chat Saturday. Informing people in a private forum that you are going to violate community rules or even hinting at it is incredibly unfair to the people you invited there as it puts them in a bind. There is an implicit understanding when someone comes to you in confidence for privacy, that it should be respected, you don't betray people's trust. However if you are in a position to prevent a violation of the community standards that you are responsible for upholding you have a duty to do so as well, you don't betray the community's trust. The best resolution to that conundrum varies on a case by case bases, sometimes it's really easy, but sometimes it's incredibly complex, and you really should avoid putting people in that situation outside of extraordinary circumstances. In fact as I mentioned earlier conversations about wiki related things should almost always stay on wiki, unless privacy is paramount.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>So earlier I said your trajectory looked positive, I'm not so sure of that now. However, you're not blocked, so if you still want to experiment with things you don't need tools for you're good-to-go. As for one-strike, you were given considerably more than one-strike, and again not trying to rub in any salt here, but even if this were the first wiki you'd edited on ever, you would have been in rather hot water. And again I'm just trying to keep it real here.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>So I feel like everyone is owed a path forward, however narrow, so my question is this: What do you want to accomplish here? Is it something that requires certain flags on your account? So far all you've said is you don't want any restrictions, but if that really is all you want then you have a zillion independent wikis to choose from, some don't even have accounts, no restrictions for anyone. So again, why here? If you help everyone else understand your desired end state then maybe we can come up with something to get you there. Best, [[User:Fast|Fast - ZoomZoom]] ([[User talk:Fast|talk]]) 04:20, 11 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
=== Ease of editing break === | |||
:{{ping|Fast}} Technically, it's not a sockpuppet, as I wasn't blocked here. I'd like to be able to get the bureaucrat right, that's what I'm trying to accomplish here. [[User:BlackWidowMovie0|BlackWidowMovie0]] ([[User talk:BlackWidowMovie0|talk]]) 16:37, 11 December 2020 (UTC) | :{{ping|Fast}} Technically, it's not a sockpuppet, as I wasn't blocked here. I'd like to be able to get the bureaucrat right, that's what I'm trying to accomplish here. [[User:BlackWidowMovie0|BlackWidowMovie0]] ([[User talk:BlackWidowMovie0|talk]]) 16:37, 11 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
:: It was not block evasion, but that was sockpuppetry. Given that you were involved in a number of disputes, were denied bureaucrat permissions by several crats here, and were close to losing your sysop permissions, that account was a clear attempt to avoid scruntiny. [[User:Naleksuh|Naleksuh]] ([[User talk:Naleksuh|talk]]) 19:12, 11 December 2020 (UTC) | :: It was not block evasion, but that was sockpuppetry. Given that you were involved in a number of disputes, were denied bureaucrat permissions by several crats here, and were close to losing your sysop permissions, that account was a clear attempt to avoid scruntiny. [[User:Naleksuh|Naleksuh]] ([[User talk:Naleksuh|talk]]) 19:12, 11 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
:: The purpose of this wiki is for testing. Advanced permissions granted for the purpose of testing said permissions. The purpose of this wiki is not to gain rights or for hat collectors. If your goal here is to become a bureaucrat, you may be best looking somewhere else. [[User:Naleksuh|Naleksuh]] ([[User talk:Naleksuh|talk]]) 19:12, 11 December 2020 (UTC) | :: The purpose of this wiki is for testing. Advanced permissions granted for the purpose of testing said permissions. The purpose of this wiki is not to gain rights or for hat collectors. If your goal here is to become a bureaucrat, you may be best looking somewhere else. [[User:Naleksuh|Naleksuh]] ([[User talk:Naleksuh|talk]]) 19:12, 11 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
:::{{ping|Naleksuh}} My goal is to get the 'crat right so I can test the advanced tools on there that sysop perms cannot. [[User:BlackWidowMovie0|BlackWidowMovie0]] ([[User talk:BlackWidowMovie0|talk]]) 19:15, 11 December 2020 (UTC) | :::{{ping|Naleksuh}} My goal is to get the 'crat right so I can test the advanced tools on there that sysop perms cannot. [[User:BlackWidowMovie0|BlackWidowMovie0]] ([[User talk:BlackWidowMovie0|talk]]) 19:15, 11 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
::::Thanks for your answer. Now let's discuss the obstacles in the path there.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>As a quick point, Naleksuh is absolutely right, while not block evasion the new account was indeed a [[:meatball:SockPuppet|SockPuppet]], and your creation of it furthers the notion in others that you lack a solid understanding of community norms and expectations.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>Thus far you have demonstrated a desire (and I'm only talking about your history here), to exercise the tools you've been allotted outside of a testing environment, however in so doing you have occasionally employed them in an inappropriate manner thereby unintentionally disrupting the normal workflow of the wiki and creating more work for others. Further you sometimes demonstrate excessive pique even verging on a "my way or the highway" attitude when your fellow community members try to find a way forward to allow you to continue to use the tools while avoiding problems by setting some explicit limits on your activities.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>This brings us to why the community is reluctant to grant you the crat flag. It's important to understand that the crat flag doesn't really offer that many additional tools (the complete list is [[Special:ListGroupRights#bureaucrat|here]]), and some of the ones it does have similar functionality to the tools already in the sysop kit (e.g. <code>deletelogentry</code> works in essentially the same manner as <code>deleterevision</code>). So there isn't much to be gained by testing them. The ones that are kind of differrent like <code>editinterface</code> and <code>editsitejson</code>, could in the hands of someone who makes well-intentioned but nonetheless erronous use of them cause considerable problems. Since there is neither confidence that you will voluntarily confine your use of these tools to testing, nor that you will be willing to accept limitations on their use, others are uncomfortable giving them to you.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>It's important to remember that trust is not static, it can change over time. In addition trust is situational, I may trust a mechanic to operate on my engine, but not my heart. I don't think people are going to be comfortable with you using sensitive tools outside the testing environment anytime soon. But with some clear limitations you may be regranted them for testing in the near future, but only after its evident you won't randomly run off and use them incorrectly. So I hope I've fairly explained the concerns here.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>Part of offering fair process is engagement I want to let yet have input here, but my initial suggestion is to just pause for now (what cause have you to hurry?). You can continue to test things here like templates and scripts that don't require any tools; we can discuss the exact timetable, because you should have a clear expectation of when it's OK to ask for more, and if there are no issues we put the sysop flag back on your account with clear limitations on the use of tools, set a another timetable, and if everything looks good go ahead and grant 'crat for a day or so and assuming that goes well, and you still feel the need to test things here on an ongoing basis then we can address giving the flag with no strings attached, I think this is reasonable, but I'm open to further suggestion.<div style="margin-top:.5em"></div>So I understand that conflicts are no fun, but please [[:CommunityWiki:DontHateThePlayer|don't take it personally]]; everyone wants to help you become a better WikiCitizen, we're just not quite sure how. Best, [[User:Fast|Fast - ZoomZoom]] ([[User talk:Fast|talk]]) 00:17, 12 December 2020 (UTC) | |||