Test Wiki:Community portal/Archive 8: Difference between revisions
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it</b>. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.''</div> | :''The above discussion is preserved as an archive. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it</b>. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.''</div> | ||
==Alternate proposal: Merging CheckUser and oversight to steward== | |||
{{Discussion top|Per consensus, steward group now has <code>checkuser-log</code> and <code>supressionlog</code>. [[User:MacFan4000|MacFan4000]] <sup>([[User talk:MacFan4000|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/MacFan4000|Contribs]])</sup> 18:58, 10 August 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
Hello community! I’d like to propose an alternative to the proposal above about merging the rights. Here’s what I’d propose: | |||
*Stewards are granted the suppression-log, view suppressed, and CheckUser-log rights for accountability; | |||
*The CheckUser and Suppressor groups remain existent and aren’t removed; | |||
This would allow for accountability amongst stewards and still allow non/stewards to be granted those rights if absolutely necessary. [[User:X|X]] ([[User talk:X|talk]]) 15:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:{{support}} - That seems like a good and better proposal, which is why I withdrew my proposal. [[User:Drummingman|Drummingman]] ([[User talk:Drummingman|talk]]) 15:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:{{Support}} [[User:AlPaD|AlPaD]] ([[User talk:AlPaD|talk]]) 15:28, 27 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:{{support}} as proposer. [[User:X|X]] ([[User talk:X|talk]]) 20:58, 27 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:{{oppose}} viewsuppressed as it poses a confidentiality risk, {{support}} the rest. [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 07:14, 28 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Could you elaborate what you mean by “confidentiality risk”? @[[User:Drummingman|Drummingman]] requested I add “view suppressed” to list via Discord, so you may want to discuss with him. [[User:X|X]] ([[User talk:X|talk]]) 11:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::The reason I want to include view suppressed is that the logs already show a (partially) suppressed version, but to check each other properly you need view suppressed, and otherwise you have to add suppression yourself. The rest has to do with trusting the stewards to keep suppressed versions secret, which hopefully is already the case. [[User:Drummingman|Drummingman]] ([[User talk:Drummingman|talk]]) 13:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::What's wrong with adding the rights in that case? I don't view that as a significant imposition, and it aids public and community transparency. [[User:Dmehus|Dmehus]] ([[User talk:Dmehus|talk]]) 16:32, 1 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::I don't think you should be able to just view suppressed revisions without the community knowing. [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 10:43, 2 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:{{support}}: per proposer. Whether non-stewards should be granted CU or SU is a question I will pose in another proposal if this one succeeds. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 13:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:{{Oppose}} per [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]]. [[User:Dmehus|Dmehus]] ([[User talk:Dmehus|talk]]) 16:29, 1 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::So would you support it without view suppressed? [[User:X|X]] ([[User talk:X|talk]]) 16:33, 1 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes. There does seem to be unanimous [[w:WP:CON|consensus]] here to at least <code>checkuser-log</code> being added. [[User:Dmehus|Dmehus]] ([[User talk:Dmehus|talk]]) 22:16, 2 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:{{Neutral}} - CU and SU practice for bureaucrats are optional, but I don't mind with CU and SU remain existent and not removed and steward having the CU and SU rights. [[User:Tailsultimatefan3891|Tailsultimatefan3891]] ([[User talk:Tailsultimatefan3891|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Tailsultimatefan3891|contribs]]) ([[Special:UserRights/Tailsultimatefan3891|rights]]) ([[Special:Block/Tailsultimatefan3891|block]]) 23:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
===Possible close?=== | |||
[[User:Drummingman|Drummingman]], [[User:AlPaD|AlPaD]], [[User:X|X]], [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]], [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]], and [[User:Tailsultimatefan3891|Tailsultimatefan3891]], I'm involved, and though I am fairly certain there would be no objections to me closing in this way, I thought I'd {{tl|ping}} you all here to receive your assent to this being closed as follows, as '''successful''' with '''<code>checkuser-log</code> added to the <code>[[Test Wiki:Stewards|steward]]</code>''' group and all other user groups remaining the same? [[User:Dmehus|Dmehus]] ([[User talk:Dmehus|talk]]) 21:52, 2 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Sign below this line if supportive ---> | |||
:I agree. [[User:Drummingman|Drummingman]] ([[User talk:Drummingman|talk]]) 22:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:I agree [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 05:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:I agree. [[User:AlPaD|AlPaD]] ([[User talk:AlPaD|talk]]) 15:39, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Filed pull request. So {{partially done}} [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 13:33, 18 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
{{Discussion bottom}} | |||
==Potential RfS candidate== | |||
Hello. I'm considering running for Stewardship sometime in the near future. I would be assisted greatly by the Steward tools, given that my main edits and logged actions consist of preventing abuse. | |||
I also think the community needs another Steward due to the fact that we have 3 Stewards, and only 1 is fully active, and a person cannot manage every Steward-reserved matter by themselves. I would add additional coverage to spot and prevent complex disruption, such as by [[Wikipedia:WP:CIR|users who lack the skills necessary to edit]]. My question is, what does the community think? Add feedback here in the Survey section below. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 01:30, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
===Survey=== | |||
I would support. You have handled your tools well here and on other wikis, and are trustworthy. [[User:Piccadilly|Piccadilly]] ([[Special:Contribs/Piccadilly|<span style="color:red">My Contribs</span>]] | [[Special:Newsection/User talk:Piccadilly|<span style="color:#0080ff">Talk to me</span>]]) 01:32, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
I would not have any opposition to a potential run at some point in the near- to medium-term future. I would just recommend you articulate a clear need, invite questions from the community, and, perhaps, provide several situation-based examples to which you would articulate how you would handle those situations. As a [[Test Wiki:Stewards|Steward]] and an administrator of such elections, I will refrain from an expressing a view and stay neutral, so as to be impartial in any potential close. [[User:Dmehus|Dmehus]] ([[User talk:Dmehus|talk]]) 01:38, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:“With Drummingman's recent election to Steward, they are quite active here. Combined with my own resumption of being semi-active here, as well as MacFan4000, I feel there isn't a sufficient need for an additional Steward.” How is that different here? “I am not comfortable granting restricted permissions to someone I don't know, at least not without some on-wiki confirmation that they've held restricted tools on a Wikimedia, Miraheze, Fandom, or other major wiki or wiki farm. For Test Wiki is a recent launch, initiated as a protest wiki by one user who took issue with the way Public Test Wiki and/or Test Wiki are run. I do not consider holding restricted permissions on For Test Wiki to be sufficient demonstration that the user can be trusted.” How is that different either @[[User:Dmehus|Dmehus]]? [[User:X|X]] ([[User talk:X|talk]]) 01:45, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::The former: I have articulated a need for Stewards based on activity, as well as an individual need for the tools. The latter: I'm Justarandomamerican on Miraheze and Wikimedia, and collaborated with Dmehus on Miraheze. Note that this comment are my thoughts on the matter, not his. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 02:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::I know, but @[[User:Dmehus|Dmehus]] has expressed that he doesn’t think we need another steward, so I’m asking for clarification. [[User:X|X]] ([[User talk:X|talk]]) 02:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::I said I think it would need to be well-articulated on what the requesting user plans to do. While ideally some sort of global role would be nice to demonstrate the user is trusted, I actually thought Justarandomamerican was a Wikimedia Global Rollbacker, but I think I was thinking of JavaHurricane, with whom I've also collaborated on Miraheze and Public Test Wiki. IMHO, it [rfc:2119 ''should''] be some sort of local or global role on Miraheze, Wikimedia, or Fandom that demonstrates the user is sufficiently ''trusted''. For Wikimedia, it can probably be a ''local'' role, whereas on Miraheze, I'd say either a Miraheze Meta Wiki local role, Public Test Wiki Consul, or a Miraheze global role (other than global IP block exemption). For Fandom, it should be a Fandom global community or staff role. Hope that clarifies. :) [[User:Dmehus|Dmehus]] ([[User talk:Dmehus|talk]]) 02:23, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::I'm not a global rollbacker on WM as I have no need for that right at the moment, but I am an enwiki and simplewiki local rollbacker. I'm relatively trusted to prevent abuse. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 02:27, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
I would weak oppose, as you aren't super trusted on wikimedia, and there isn't a need, though I would consider supporting if you held a higher trust role on wikimedia (i.e template editor, massmessage sender, new pages reviewer, edit filter helper, page mover, file mover, autopatrol), or a high trust global role, as I'd rather see some form of trustworthy role, as rollback isn't that highly sanctioned. [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 07:13, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:The supposedly higher trust roles you describe are for a need and competency in entirely different areas: I'm not experienced enough to be a template editor, have no need to be a mass message sender, NPR is a user group assisting in dealing with content, not conduct, etc. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 13:15, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::That makes sense. I’d say wait. Given that my RfS just failed with multiple people expressing that they don’t think a 4th steward is needed at all. [[User:X|X]] ([[User talk:X|talk]]) 13:27, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Well, there appears to be, given the fact that there are only 3 Stewards and only 1 is fully active. I plan on waiting a bit anyways. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 13:39, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Well, there are plenty of roles that aren't for an explicit need, they show you can be trusted, you have 2500 edits on wikimedia, which isn't very many, and I'd rather you had higher trust levels on other wikis. [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 19:00, 5 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::How is making 2500 edits not very many? [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Wikipedians#User permissions|Only 30% of registered Wikipedia users ever make one.]] [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 19:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::I've got around 6000 which isn't very many, I'd expect more like 7500. [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 15:49, 8 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::I was inviting you to explain why that isn't enough, as that's more than [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Wikipedians#User permissions|99.5% of all registered contributors]], and I am seeking the position for an individual need for tools to prevent abuse. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 15:56, 8 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::You don’t have a need for the tools, you have full access to the suite of admin tools which is enough to prevent abuse. I’m simply saying, that rollback isn’t that high trust, as they give it out to anyone who has a history of anti vandalism and meets the requirements, and 2500 edits is more than most users, but for a right giving access to look at IP addresses, I’d expect more trust on other wikis when the right isn’t entirely required. [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 12:50, 9 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I could say that nobody actually requires the tools. Dmehus doesn't actually have a ''need'' to look up IPs, but was given the toolkit anyways. Cross-wiki trust barely matters in a small community, or even a large one. Nobody judges a scowiki admin candidate on the basis that they only have rollback on enwiki. Nobody judges an enwiki admin for only having rollback and patroller on metamiraheze. Why is this required when I have a track record right here of making perfectly fine decisions? Simply put: if a candidate has a track record of making good decisions on the wiki they are requesting permissions, they are trusted, even if they have a bit lower trust elsewhere. Rollback on enwiki? Sure, it's a bit lower trust, but it does add to a case of a totality of the circumstances trustworthiness, which I say exists based on my track record here and elsewhere. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 00:41, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::::IMO a few of your decisions are far from good, which is why I’d want a right on another wiki that needs you to make good decisions. You still have no need for the right though, as there is 1 active steward, 1 semi-active steward, and a rarely active steward. [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 02:34, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Please point me to a diff of a poor decision I made so that I can improve. A semi-active steward and one rarely active steward? That's why I'm requesting, there needs to be at least a duo of active stewards to handle any requests, as 1 person who is active isn't enough in any circumstance involving CU evidence, LTAs, and other forms of abuse that cannot be combated with the admin toolkit alone. People need other people to ask for review actively, not just a pair of semi-active stewards.[[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 03:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::No, I also said an active steward as well, they are enough, the decision that was not great IMO was on FTW when you and X decided to take away IP privacy from abusive users, I’m not going to use it against you as I heavily doubt that you came up with the idea of it, but, there are a few conditions under which I’d support stewardship. | |||
::::::::::If any of the following conditions are met. | |||
::::::::::#The wiki grows to the point where MacFan, Dmehus and Drummingman can’t prevent abuse. | |||
::::::::::#You are more highly trusted on other wikis (not test ones or ones that just give out high trust permissions). | |||
::::::::::#You show that you can perform actions similar to steward actions without significant opposition. | |||
::::::::::However IMO, 1 is so close to being met, that I’d probably support. Though I do consider this discussion to be pre discussion canvassing, you are a pretty highly qualified candidate, who inevitably I would have to support. [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 06:37, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Relating to the privacy policy change, if you had a problem with the change, you should’ve said so in the waiting time before the policy took effect. I don’t consider this to be canvassing, given that they weren’t asking for support and it’s all public. I was looking on Wikipedia and it appears to be similar to [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll]]. [[User:X|X]] ([[User talk:X|talk]]) 10:56, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::I did air the concern but it was ignored. [[User:Zippybonzo|Zippybonzo]] ([[User talk:Zippybonzo|talk]]) 11:48, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::I believe your concern was addressed by compromise: We replaced IP addresses with ranges, which are vague as to specific location, and cannot be used to identify 1 person in particular. I understand the concern about privacy, but some form of amendment was required to prevent disruption, and immediately after your feedback I realized that blocking IP addresses may not be the best way to go about preventing disruption from sockpuppetry, so now the PP allows for range blocks of CU-found IPs, not specific ones like was originally planned by X. I used rather vague wording whilst discussing the topic of preventing disruption from sockpuppetry, resulting in a privacy concern. My apologies. I certainly didn't mean for specific IPs to be blocked. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 14:42, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
==Amend [[Test Wiki:No open proxies]] to include [[Wikipedia:colocation centre|colocation providers]]== | |||
Colocation providers also hide IPs, like proxies and webhosts, so they should logically be included. Change: "No open proxies, web hosts, or VPNs..." to "No open proxies, web hosts, VPNs, or [[Wikipedia:Colocation providers|colocation providers]]..." [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 18:45, 5 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
:{{done}} as this is pretty uncontroversial and doesn’t warrant further discussion. [[User:X|X]] ([[User talk:X|talk]]) 16:21, 8 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
