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Alternate proposal: Merging CheckUser and oversight to steward

Hello community! I’d like to propose an alternative to the proposal above about merging the rights. Here’s what I’d propose:

• Stewards are granted the suppression-log, view suppressed, and CheckUser-log rights for accountability;
• The CheckUser and Suppressor groups remain existent and aren’t removed;

This would allow for accountability amongst stewards and still allow non/stewards to be granted those rights if absolutely necessary. X (talk) 15:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

 Support - That seems like a good and better proposal, which is why I withdrew my proposal. Drummingman (talk) 15:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

 Support AlPaD (talk) 15:28, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

 Support as proposer. X (talk) 20:58, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

 Oppose viewsuppressed as it poses a confidentiality risk,  Support the rest. Zippybonzo (talk) 07:14, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Could you elaborate what you mean by “confidentiality risk”? @Drummingman requested I add “view suppressed” to list via Discord, so you may want to discuss with him. X (talk) 11:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

The reason I want to include view suppressed is that the logs already show a (partially) suppressed version, but to check each other properly you need view suppressed, and otherwise you have to add suppression yourself. The rest has to do with trusting the stewards to keep suppressed versions secret, which hopefully is already the case. Drummingman (talk) 13:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

What's wrong with adding the rights in that case? I don't view that as a significant imposition, and it aids public and community transparency. Dmehus (talk) 16:32, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think you should be able to just view suppressed revisions without the community knowing. Zippybonzo (talk) 10:43, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

 Support: per proposer. Whether non-stewards should be granted CU or SU is a question I will pose in another proposal if this one succeeds. Justarandomamerican (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

 Oppose per Zippybonzo. Dmehus (talk) 16:29, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

So would you support it without view suppressed? X (talk) 16:33, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes. There does seem to be unanimous consensus here to at least checkuser-log being added. Dmehus (talk) 22:16, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Neutral - CU and SU practice for bureaucrats are optional, but I don't mind with CU and SU remain existent and not removed and steward having the CU and SU rights. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 23:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Possible close?

Drummingman, AlPaD, X, Zippybonzo, Justarandomamerican, and Tailsultimatefan3891, I'm involved, and though I am fairly certain there would be no objections to me closing in this way, I thought I'd {{ping}} you all here to receive your assent to this being closed as follows, as successful with checkuser-log added to the steward group and all other user groups remaining the same? Dmehus (talk) 21:52, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Object to proposed close

• I don’t see why suppression log cannot be added too, given that there was no opposition to that. X (talk) 21:54, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
• I'm confused. Why exactly would that be the only right added, given the fact that the only possible opposition to suppression-log is confusing as a (full?) opposition based on a partial opposition? Justarandomamerican (talk) 21:55, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  X and Justarandomamerican, I've refreshed my memory on what Test Wiki's Special:Log/suppress displays, which is what would be viewable if that user right were added to the steward user group. For all or most pages in (Main) namespace or most other namespaces, there is little PII leakage. Similarly, there is also little to no PII leakage when secretly changing specific revisions to a page. However, the issue I suspected existed, which is what I think Zippybonzo was alluding to in his !vote argument is for pages within User: and User talk: namespaces. Specifically, on pages where a user inadvertently edited while logged lout or where they created an IP user/user talk page instead of their own user/user talk page. If this user right were added, it would be very easy to associate the likely page creator/editor to the likely IP address. I realize Stewards are trusted by the community, but on the same hand, I also feel like it's a lot of information that could be gleaned without having to add one's CheckUser hat. Dmehus (talk) 22:13, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Requests for stewardship X

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Closed as per the withdrawal in the "Result" section by the candidate. Whilst I have voted, this is unambiguous, see the withdrawal. Justarandomamerican (talk) 18:27, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

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Nomination

Dear, community, I would hereby like to nominate user X as Steward.

It has now been a little over a month since X applied for Steward. Meanwhile, I see that X has developed positively and is very active. I think X could help the steward team with Test Wiki maintenance, so that an active steward is available more often to help this wiki. For example, to close community discussions that are still open. I hope you will join me in supporting X. Drummingman (talk) 14:33, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

User X, please indicate here whether you accept the nomination?

Yes, I accept the nomination and sincerely thank Drummingman for his kind words. If a steward thinks I can assist the steward team, then I am up for it. :) X (talk) 14:37, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Support

•  Support as candidate. I'm very active here and want to help out the current steward team. Ive performed most of the permissions requests since I joined the wiki, and Drummingman thinks I can help as a steward. X (talk) 14:37, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Struck as you cannot !vote for yourself. Zippybonzo (talk) 05:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Unstruck. A steward will decide that when closing. There is no policy saying you cannot. X (talk) 11:12, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

No, but it's obvious, your support is automatically counted, it's common sense that you shouldn't vote for yourself, I'm going to strike it again as it's good practise to not vote for yourself. Zippybonzo (talk) 15:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

As it is not forbidden by policy, you should go to the talk page for consensus instead of redoing your edit. Justarandomamerican (talk) 15:45, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

And in addition, it appears that in the past users have voted for themselves, most recently @Drummingman in his successful RFS. X (talk) 15:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Deleting pages randomly isn't forbidden, but frowned upon, you started the edit war by reinstating a reversed edit. Zippybonzo (talk) 17:45, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

We both know that unstriking votes and randomly deleting pages are 2 very different things. X (talk) 19:07, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

No, my point is it doesn't say explicitly it's forbidden, but you get disciplined for it. Zippybonzo (talk) 07:09, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

•  Support Why not? I also think X can be trusted with the rights and responsibilities of a Steward. Justarandomamerican (talk) 14:39, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  Move to oppose due to concerns I have. Justarandomamerican (talk) 17:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

•  Support - As the nominator. Drummingman (talk) 14:43, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  Moved to Neutral, Drummingman (talk) 19:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

•  Support Has done a good job on For-Test and is trustworthy Seiyena (My Contribs | Talk to me) 14:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
•  Support Trusted user, thank you for your help! AlPaD (talk) 15:39, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
• Heavy  Support. Trusted user, incredibly helpful and can be trusted with the rights. Good luck!Sav • ( Edits | Talk ) 02:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

* Support why not? Zippybonzo (talk) 05:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Zippybonzo, I'm confused as to whether you are supporting or opposing here, given you've moved back and forth between support and oppose, and your argument on record still suggests an oppose. Can you please clarify this? Dmehus (talk) 16:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  Per the diff I’ve linked on your talk, Zippy has supported and struck their oppose vote. Please revert your unstrike. X (talk) 16:09, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, I can see that, but I'll decline to unstrike it for the time being, given that I've asked Zippybonzo to clarify already whether they are supporting or opposing currently and why, given their current argument on record suggests the latter. They may also wish to consider subsequent comments from users, given how they have gone back and forth. Finally, with so many users striking and unstriking comments here, I think it's best to leave it to them. Dmehus (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  You can’t just unstrike comments because that drastically affects the vote. And just because they might want to concierge other arguments isn’t a correct reason either; they will do that on their own accord. X (talk) 16:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

• Moved to oppose. Zippybonzo (talk) 10:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

•  Support Cocopuff2018 (talk) 21:55, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
•  Support. X is very active, very constructive, very helpful, and have satisfactory edits, and is an admin and a bureaucrat. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 18:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

•  Oppose I don't think we need a new steward. LisafBia (talk) 06:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  Hello @LisafBia! Thanks for commenting on my stewardship request. I completely agree with the point you make. We don’t really NEED a new steward currently, but in my opinion, it would be very helpful. And considering that one of the stewards, @Drummingman, agrees with the need for another steward, it’s probably best to elect one. I’m not attempting to sway your opinion, just provide you with another point of view you might not have considered. Thanks for reading my long comment, sometimes I don’t know how to be less verbose. :) X (talk) 11:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

•  Oppose per LisafBia, and on other wikis, they have inadvertently leaked IP addresses when blocking users and the underlying IPs. Zippybonzo (talk) 07:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

This is simply untrue. I didn’t “inadvertently leak” IPs. I blocked the IPs of blocked users after a steward discussion. @Justarandomamerican: can tell you that he agreed with the actions, I was just the one who performed them. And with our updated privacy policy to exempt socks, the actions are policy supported too. In addition, our community just reviewed the actions and thought they were appropriate. You were the only one who disagreed. I can definitely see how it would come off that way, but this was a carefully discussed action that the stewards thought needed to be taken. X (talk) 11:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but IPs were still released, whether it was permitted or not is a different question, and I'm leaving my vote as is, and we don't need a new steward in any case. Zippybonzo (talk) 13:18, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

The argument that IPs that were released on another wiki after discussion to block them in order to prevent disruption doesn't seem to be taking the circumstances here into consideration. This is a wiki that permits Stewards to go beyond just releasing IPs to block them. It's fine if you oppose based on need, that's okay. But using the argument explained above as a secondary argument still doesn't make it a good argument. Justarandomamerican (talk) 13:36, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

•  Oppose possibly strong for multiple reasons. For one thing, as LisafBia has indicated above, with Drummingman's recent election to Steward, they are quite active here. Combined with my own resumption of being semi-active here, as well as MacFan4000, I feel there isn't a sufficient need for an additional Steward. Secondly, I am not comfortable granting restricted permissions to someone I don't know, at least not without some on-wiki confirmation that they've held restricted tools on a Wikimedia, Miraheze, Fandom, or other major wiki or wiki farm. For Test Wiki is a recent launch, initiated as a protest wiki by one user who took issue with the way Public Test Wiki and/or Test Wiki are run. I do not consider holding restricted permissions on For Test Wiki to be sufficient demonstration that the user can be trusted. As well, I also see user conduct issues. While I do see some edit warring on Zippybonzo's part, I also see edit warring on X's part, including striking other users' votes. That should be left to other users to do; it's just not a good look, especially in one's own permission request. Even if it was justified, it's a potential conflict of interest. More problematic, though, it makes it difficult for other Stewards and community members to fully and easily assess the edits in editorial disputes. Additionally, in X's last Stewardship request, there was strong opposition to the request, to submit to or agree to another nomination so soon, disregards the community consensus formed in that discussion—a closure which was pre-empted by X's closing the request as withdrawn, which, too, is problematic from that perspective. Finally, I also have issues with the user's recent handling of Seiyena, proceeding directly to a longer term block and interfering with Justarandomamerican's handling of the situation, which included firm warnings. This makes me question their potential judgment as a Steward. Finally, their reaching out to me privately to request closure, for the sake of closing the discussion, which was barely opened four days ago also troubles me. I don't know whether X used Special:EmailUser to reach out to MacFan4000 as well, but I do know they reached out to Drummingman to close, and Drummingman closing as nominator would indeed by a highly involved, problematic closure, so I'm glad he declined that. Dmehus (talk) 16:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  I cannot see striking of other users' votes, can you please provide a diff? Thank you. Justarandomamerican (talk) 16:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  He may be referring to when I added an end strike when ZippyBonzo forgot to, although that was definitely a correct action. X (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  Justarandomamerican, yes, I believe I linked to it in an edit summary, no? I believe it may be the one X refers to. Whether it was a correct strike if Zippybonzo had withdrawn their !vote, they are also capable of fixing it themselves or, should they not be sufficiently active, letting an unconflicted user fix it. That's still problematic. Dmehus (talk) 16:24, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  Helping out another user is problematic? I was just trying to help. X (talk) 16:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  In your own permissions request. That's conflicted. You [rfc:2119 should] have left it to another user to fix. Dmehus (talk) 16:28, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  Okay. But I would also like to point out that undo-ing a strike that supports what you think is also very conflicted and problematic. X (talk) 16:30, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not too sure how adding an end-strike to a !vote amendment which resulted in the !voting user striking an entire part of discussion out is inherently problematic. It is a mere technical fix which should be uncontroversial. Justarandomamerican (talk) 16:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  I directly recall asking X to do it on my behalf off-wiki. Zippybonzo (talk) 10:34, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  I’m still trying to comprehend your entire reasoning, but I wanted to point out that @Drummingman was the one who asked me to email you requesting closure. He can confirm this. X (talk) 16:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  I don't know about that; all I do know is you e-mailed me. I'm sure Drummingman would have e-mailed me, as he has e-mailed me in the past with respect to other matters, if he felt closure was needed. Perhaps there could be a more justifiable case in the case of a permission request being outstanding for two or three weeks, but 3-4 days? That's quite quick, in my view. Dmehus (talk) 16:21, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

•  Oppose: I believe that this candidate having Steward rights may cause even further problems when they intervene in disputes. I have concerns about their independent judgment on second thought, due to working with them elsewhere. It appears they may not be able to make proper decisions independently. This !vote will likely be amended as I do further research. Justarandomamerican (talk) 17:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
•  Oppose: I'm going to add a fresh oppose as I'm fed up of striking and unstriking, but whilst I believe X is competent, I would like to see them holding advanced permissions somewhere like Wikimedia. I also find their conduct in this discussion to be confusing/concerning. The rest of my oppose !vote is summed up by Justarandomamerican and Dmehus. Zippybonzo (talk) 10:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Neutral

• Neutral. X is very active, very constructive, very helpful, and have satisfactory edits, and is an admin and a bureaucrat, despite some features he need to work on. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 17:37, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  Could you specify how you think I can improve? Thanks! X (talk) 17:37, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  CheckUser and Suppressor. Once you complete those 2 things, you can be steward. I'm contacting the stewards and one of the three stewards will give you both CU and Suppressor. Pinging the stewards. @Drummingman: @MacFan4000: @Dmehus: Stewards, could you promote X to CheckUser and Suppressor? Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 18:41, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  Per established policy, these rights won't be granted to non-stewards. So basically, If you want me to hold these rights, I must first be a steward. X (talk) 18:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  OK, moved my vote to support. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 18:48, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

• Neutral- As the nominator, I want to be Neutral. Drummingman (talk) 19:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Result

Withdrawn by X (talk) at 12:39, 2 July 2023 (UTC).

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

User:Example

Greetings, @Drummingman: @Dmehus:.

I have a query regarding tracking and identifying individuals who have accessed a particular user account and conducted unauthorized activities, specifically acts of vandalism. Considering the recent blocks on the user in question, I believe it is important to determine the individuals responsible for such actions. Is there a feasible method to achieve this? Sav • ( Edits | Talk ) 02:04, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I don’t think any action is needed at this time, considering the account hasn’t edited since March. If the account were to start vandalizing again, a CheckUser may want to take a look, but now I’m not sure it’s needed. However, it’s ultimately up to the stewards. X (talk) 02:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with X. CU also no longer makes sense because the logs are only kept for 90 days. However, I did block the account indefinitely as a Steward action because it is indeed a site risk. Drummingman (talk) 14:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Block proxy 159.89.228.253

Status:  Done

• 159.89.228.253 - A SOCKS4 open proxy. Port for this proxy is 38172. I am not an admin. Requested 19:57, 30 June 2023 (UTC).

Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block)

Block numberous proxies

Status:  Done

I am not an admin.

• 143.47.185.211
• 107.181.230.227
• 143.47.185.211

Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 20:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Also block: 13.81.217.201. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 20:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done X (talk) 20:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Also block: 51.38.191.151. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 20:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done X (talk) 20:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Also block: 162.144.233.16. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 20:13, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done X performed a range block including this, and a individual block for this proxy. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 20:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Also block: 72.195.34.59. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 21:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done performed by X. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 22:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Also block: 98.188.47.132. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 22:12, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Proxy bot

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

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Status:  Not done and withdrawn

Nomination

Hi, This is a nomination from Tailsultimatefan3891. Can any administrator have a proxy bot? It's the same, but with slight differences. Instead of blocking proxies manually, it's now automatically. It prevents proxies from further disruption and protects the wiki from disruption from proxies. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 20:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: Uses Special:Block to block proxies. The bot will check proxies at this link: [1]. Then will copy the selected IP and paste the selected IP at the "User/IP" section. Then it will block the proxy. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 21:22, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Please link the code. X (talk) 21:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

What does it mean? Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 21:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

A bot needs code to run… X (talk) 21:47, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Comments

•  Comment: Please provide code bot will use to run. X (talk) 20:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
  • I did. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 21:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

    No you didn’t. Code is usually stored on GitHub. Providing a link to a list or proxies isn’t code. Until this is provided I’m marking as  Not done. X (talk) 21:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Result

Status as withdrawn. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 17:38, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Rename Request

Hello! Would it be possible for a steward to rename me to Piccadilly? Thank you! Seiyena (My Contribs | Talk to me) 21:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

 Support as it will create consistency with other projects. X (talk) 21:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @MacFan4000: @Dmehus: @Drummingman: Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 21:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done MacFan4000 ^{(Talk Contribs)} 15:44, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Seiyena (My Contribs | Talk to me) 17:04, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Block proxies, users, and IPs at the link below

Block proxies, users, and IPs: User:Tailsultimatefan3891/Block users and IPs requests

Note: I am not an admin. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 17:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Add IPBE privilege

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Moot, as said by some participants, the ipblock-exempt user right is already contained with the sysop user group, which has no prerequisites other than a confirmation edit. That being said, there could be a benefit to moving this user right from the sysop group to the bureaucrat group and/or be a separate user group grantable by bureaucrats and stewards to trusted users. It would also aid in user restriction-restricted user management, but that can be a potential discussion for much later. Dmehus (talk) 21:23, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

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Nomination

This is Tailsultimatefan3891. I'd like the wiki to have the IPBE (IP block exemption) privilege to Test Wiki. Unfortunately however, I can't do it immediately, as only system administrators can do it. The IPBE privilege can have the following right:

• Bypass IP blocks, auto-blocks and range blocks (ipblock-exempt)

Update of 18:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC): Only in the case of an IP block, auto-block, and/or range blocks that anyone has logging to their user but not an admin.

From, Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 18:35, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Support

•  Support Author request. It helps non-admins in the case of an IP block, auto-block, and/or range blocks. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 18:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
•  Support as some people won't be able to request rights if they have a blocked IP. Zippybonzo (talk) 10:44, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

•  Oppose as sysops already have it, so no need for a separate group. X (talk) 18:37, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
  • But only in the case of an IP block, auto-block, and/or range blocks that anyone has logging to their user but not an admin. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 18:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
    • I can see that, but any user can become an admin, so isn't it redundant? X (talk) 18:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
      • Even users request to get their permission can be blocked only in the case of an IP block, auto-block, and/or range blocks before the permission is granted. It has since existed on Wikipedia and The Test Wiki (the wiki made in 2010). It hasn't been made on this wiki yet. For this, it's partially redundant. IPBE is for non-sysops only. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk)
•  Oppose As per X's comment. Sav • ( Edits | Talk ) 21:18, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Just what I tell you above. Tailsultimatefan3891 (T | C | UR | B) 12:52, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Comments

•  Comment: I don't know if IPBE is very useful or not. While IPBE for admins is being redundant, it's not redundant for non-admins. But IPBE isn't totally useful because with just 1 person voting  Support (that was me) 2 persons voting  Support (that was Zippybonzo and me) and also 2 persons voting  Oppose (that was Sav and X). By the way, it's unknown if it's very helpful, while leaning on not extremely useful. Tailsultimatefan3891 (talk) (contribs) (rights) (block) 23:34, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.