User talk:BlackWidowMovie0

Best of luck to you

Hope this was a good learning opportunity and you had fun, try to make use of the knowledge you got elsewhere (but be sure to appeal your blocks rather than evading them where needed) and do try to read a little more and get acclimated with the local culture before diving into things in the future, Best Fast - ZoomZoom (talk) 19:37, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Fast: I am willing to share why I retired this account, if you can create an IRC and join #testadminwiki, I'd be happy to explain. It's not hard to create an account here, I want to explain. Thanks! BlackWidowMovie0 (talk) 20:37, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Why are you not able to post on-wiki? Naleksuh (talk) 20:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Naleksuh and Fast: There are several reasons. I am also open to explaining it to you, but only on IRC or Discord. BlackWidowMovie0 (talk) 20:54, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

That's fine you don't owe me an explanation. That said if I remember I'll try to drop by on IRC this weekend when I'm less busy in case you want to get something off your chest, and you can tell me as much or as little as you want. Fast - ZoomZoom (talk) 21:49, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Fast: There's really no point trying to start over anymore. I was trying for a fresh start on this wiki, as people didn't trust me. A user screwed it, and now I'm sad. BlackWidowMovie0 (talk) 21:59, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

There's a quote I'd like to share with you

It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!

So however sad you are just remember this too shall pass.

Being excluding from a community you enjoy being a part of sucks. Believe it or not I'm still fairly new to the helping maintain a wiki business, but I've been doing forum moderation for some time and I've seen many people take it hard when they're excluded, or even when they get muted by just a few others. What I can say is that even in these times you can't let the online world become the whole of your life, and you can't let your self-worth be defined by what other random people on the internet think of you, and your certainly can't let it be decided by what flags your accounts have on various websites, its silly, and not worth the stress. So log off relax, go watch a netflix marathon whatever you have to do to decompress and take care of yourself.

I have mixed feelings on the whole clean start thing myself, online communities run to some degree on trust, and clandestine reincarnations can undermine that trust. However, I also feel that forgive and forget is a truly important principle, and sometimes a clean start really is best for everyone all around. And the truth is that in some communities no one cares how many accounts you have, even if there all logged on at once, others don't even have user accounts at all; after all logins are evil, and for yet others while you can create an account if you want to almost no one does (thinking of the various chans here). And for wikis the thing is everyone is ultimately coming together for barn-raising, as a group we can all build something none of us could've built on our own, and what's important is that the barn gets built not who built it.

So I'm starting to ramble, but if the communities you want to be a part of don't allow clean starts then don't. Just go back openly, apologize, explain what you did wrong, and see if you can find a way forward, yes it sucks to have a bunch of people say you're a disruptive user, but ignore them, use your emotions constructively to prove everyone wrong by being the best barn-builder out there; grow and learn from your mistakes.

But some places won't allow you back no matter what, many small-wikis and forums (not to mention some of the large ones) are run by the pettiest tyrants imaginable, others will allow you back only with silly and unreasonable demands, if that's the case fuck'em; just walk-away, your self-worth does not depend on their opinions, and frankly the community probably wasn't worth being part of anyway, so go find somewhere else to hang-out because most likely none of them were your friends in the first place.

Anyway I don't care about what you did in the distant past, I care what you are doing now. Maybe you did vandalize a bunch of pages 'for teh lulz', a while back are you going to do it again? No. Well then who cares?

Anyway, I know your still struggling to learn some things but from your limited time here your overall trajectory is positive, so take some time off, go for run, make it double, decide what you are going to do, and try to keep things in perspective, these are all really just fun online group projects you can't take them too seriously, Best Fast - ZoomZoom (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Fast: You're gonna hate me for this, but TL;DR. JUST KIDDING! I appreciate that. I've had some similar experiences to that myself, it's actually what brought me to Miraheze. I will take another swing at trying to be good here, and would ask for the admin flag back and a full startover. BlackWidowMovie0 (talk) 00:50, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to decline a resysop. You were supposed to be here under a one-strike policy, and you already certainly had more than that. You were close to losing sysop permisssions already before removing them yourself. I'm also not sure what you were "kidding" about but it seems like an attempt to deceive Fast which does not help either Naleksuh (talk) 03:23, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

@Naleksuh: I am not trying to deceive Fast, I swear. And with the message Fast posted, I'd like to start here free from rules that no one else has. No One strike, nothing. BlackWidowMovie0 (talk) 10:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

It's fine, I don't hate you, I don't even really feel any irritation. Granted I'm pretty hard to perturb these days, even outright spammers and trolls don't bother me, their motivations are easily understandable, and dealing with them is straightforward. I have sometimes been a tad irritated when dealing with people who have both big upsides and big downsides, like someone who is a strong subject matter expert and insightful commenter but also an occasional dramamonger and thread derailer. In cases like that maximizing value for everyone involves considerable extra work separating and merging discussions, moving things from public to private etc, but even then at most it'll get a brief sigh out of me.

No I'm mildly puzzled. When I first read your comment about a failed fresh start that got screwed I assumed you were referring to this account as a fresh start away from fandom, miraheze, wikimedia, et al. It didn't even occur to me that you would make a sockpuppet here, because creating another account here doesn't make much sense. This wiki is for testing, so if you're not testing yourself then you are facilitating testing for others so they can learn how to build things, and I'm not really sure how you would be significantly hampered in either by others checking in on your contributions, or by the lack of a crat flag; the number of additional tools isn't that large and the functionality is similar. But I can be dense from time-to-time as evidenced by the foregoing so maybe there's something I'm missing.

Unfortunately, and don't take this the wrong way, I will have to rescind my earlier offer to chat Saturday. Informing people in a private forum that you are going to violate community rules or even hinting at it is incredibly unfair to the people you invited there as it puts them in a bind. There is an implicit understanding when someone comes to you in confidence for privacy, that it should be respected, you don't betray people's trust. However if you are in a position to prevent a violation of the community standards that you are responsible for upholding you have a duty to do so as well, you don't betray the community's trust. The best resolution to that conundrum varies on a case by case bases, sometimes it's really easy, but sometimes it's incredibly complex, and you really should avoid putting people in that situation outside of extraordinary circumstances. In fact as I mentioned earlier conversations about wiki related things should almost always stay on wiki, unless privacy is paramount.

So earlier I said your trajectory looked positive, I'm not so sure of that now. However, you're not blocked, so if you still want to experiment with things you don't need tools for you're good-to-go. As for one-strike, you were given considerably more than one-strike, and again not trying to rub in any salt here, but even if this were the first wiki you'd edited on ever, you would have been in rather hot water. And again I'm just trying to keep it real here.

So I feel like everyone is owed a path forward, however narrow, so my question is this: What do you want to accomplish here? Is it something that requires certain flags on your account? So far all you've said is you don't want any restrictions, but if that really is all you want then you have a zillion independent wikis to choose from, some don't even have accounts, no restrictions for anyone. So again, why here? If you help everyone else understand your desired end state then maybe we can come up with something to get you there. Best, Fast - ZoomZoom (talk) 04:20, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Ease of editing break

@Fast: Technically, it's not a sockpuppet, as I wasn't blocked here. I'd like to be able to get the bureaucrat right, that's what I'm trying to accomplish here. BlackWidowMovie0 (talk) 16:37, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

It was not block evasion, but that was sockpuppetry. Given that you were involved in a number of disputes, were denied bureaucrat permissions by several crats here, and were close to losing your sysop permissions, that account was a clear attempt to avoid scruntiny. Naleksuh (talk) 19:12, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

The purpose of this wiki is for testing. Advanced permissions granted for the purpose of testing said permissions. The purpose of this wiki is not to gain rights or for hat collectors. If your goal here is to become a bureaucrat, you may be best looking somewhere else. Naleksuh (talk) 19:12, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

@Naleksuh: My goal is to get the 'crat right so I can test the advanced tools on there that sysop perms cannot. BlackWidowMovie0 (talk) 19:15, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. Now let's discuss the obstacles in the path there.

As a quick point, Naleksuh is absolutely right, while not block evasion the new account was indeed a SockPuppet, and your creation of it furthers the notion in others that you lack a solid understanding of community norms and expectations.

Thus far you have demonstrated a desire (and I'm only talking about your history here), to exercise the tools you've been allotted outside of a testing environment, however in so doing you have occasionally employed them in an inappropriate manner thereby unintentionally disrupting the normal workflow of the wiki and creating more work for others. Further you sometimes demonstrate excessive pique even verging on a "my way or the highway" attitude when your fellow community members try to find a way forward to allow you to continue to use the tools while avoiding problems by setting some explicit limits on your activities.

This brings us to why the community is reluctant to grant you the crat flag. It's important to understand that the crat flag doesn't really offer that many additional tools (the complete list is here), and some of the ones it does have similar functionality to the tools already in the sysop kit (e.g. deletelogentry works in essentially the same manner as deleterevision). So there isn't much to be gained by testing them. The ones that are kind of differrent like editinterface and editsitejson, could in the hands of someone who makes well-intentioned but nonetheless erronous use of them cause considerable problems. Since there is neither confidence that you will voluntarily confine your use of these tools to testing, nor that you will be willing to accept limitations on their use, others are uncomfortable giving them to you.

It's important to remember that trust is not static, it can change over time. In addition trust is situational, I may trust a mechanic to operate on my engine, but not my heart. I don't think people are going to be comfortable with you using sensitive tools outside the testing environment anytime soon. But with some clear limitations you may be regranted them for testing in the near future, but only after its evident you won't randomly run off and use them incorrectly. So I hope I've fairly explained the concerns here.

Part of offering fair process is engagement I want to let yet have input here, but my initial suggestion is to just pause for now (what cause have you to hurry?). You can continue to test things here like templates and scripts that don't require any tools; we can discuss the exact timetable, because you should have a clear expectation of when it's OK to ask for more, and if there are no issues we put the sysop flag back on your account with clear limitations on the use of tools, set a another timetable, and if everything looks good go ahead and grant 'crat for a day or so and assuming that goes well, and you still feel the need to test things here on an ongoing basis then we can address giving the flag with no strings attached, I think this is reasonable, but I'm open to further suggestion.

So I understand that conflicts are no fun, but please don't take it personally; everyone wants to help you become a better WikiCitizen, we're just not quite sure how. Best, Fast - ZoomZoom (talk) 00:17, 12 December 2020 (UTC)